Who is Doing the Hatred?

It is a strange fact of life that those groups who most go on and on about love, acceptance, tolerance and peace can often be the most intolerant and hate-filled folk around. Those who are most vocal about demanding that they be accepted and embraced often seem to think it should all be one-way traffic. They can often be the most abusive and nasty people around.

Consider but one recent example. The late Jerry Falwell of Moral Majority fame was committed to standing up for what he felt was right. That made him the enemy of many. One group that especially loathed him was the radical homosexual lobby.

These activists made their feelings quite clear as to how they felt about Falwell just after he died. Janet Folger has assembled some of their choice quotes in a May 29 2007 article. Here are some of the more printable blog postings from the homosexual activists after his death:

“What an absolutely putrid little excrescence of vomit he was.”
“R.I.P., and after watching Falwell I know know (sic) why the Romans threw the Christians to the lions.”
“Oh, thank non-god. One down, 28 percent to go.”
“I’d pee right on his corpse if I could.”
“Dance first, then pi– …”
“I’m saving the real party for Jesse Helms’s exit. I’ll be dancing that day.”

Says Folger, “No surprise – this is exactly how homosexual activists treated Rev. Falwell when he was alive. Homosexuals more than hated Jerry Falwell, whom they attacked, maligned, ridiculed and threatened. He didn’t make it widely known, but homosexual activists even attempted to kill him. And through it all, he met hate with love.”

As a Christian, he could respond to their hatred with love. When “homosexuals protested Dr. Falwell, they were surprised to look up and find the reverend hugging his harassers. He overcame hate with love … and truth. Truth was the part they didn’t like. As 75-year-old grandmother Arlene Elshinnawy’s sign read before they hauled her off to jail for displaying it: ‘The Truth is Hate to those who Hate the Truth’.”

Indeed, we live in a pretty screwed up world. We have become expert at calling good evil, and evil good. And we have managed to convince ourselves that murderers are the good guys, while little old ladies are the bad guys. For example, when homosexual Matthew Shepard was murdered in the US some years ago, about 80 trillion media stories appeared about the crime. Yet when a homosexual murders a mother, hardly a word of it makes it into the media.

“Ever hear of Mary Stachowicz? Didn’t think so. Mary Stachowicz, a 51-year-old wife and mother of four, was described by friends as soft-spoken, ‘concerned about the good of her parish, always seeking things for the poor as well as spiritual welfare for people.’ Mary Stachowicz also believed what the Bible and the Catholic Church taught about homosexuality. She verbalized her belief, and for that crime, she was murdered.”

“Mary was murdered by 19-year-old homosexual Nicholas Gutierrez in Chicago for the crime of disagreeing with his lifestyle. According to police reports, Stachowicz asked Gutierrez, who lived in an apartment above her, ‘Why do you [have sex with] boys instead of girls?’ That was when he ‘punched, kicked, stabbed and strangled’ her before stuffing her body into a crawl space under the floor of his apartment, where it remained for two days until he confessed to police.”

So how did the media play this story? “Chicago media reported these events, choosing headlines devoid of words like ‘gay’ or ‘homosexual.’ While I and pro-family leaders repeatedly went on national television to repudiate the death of Matthew Shepard, there was no such condemnation of Stachowicz’s horrific murder from the homosexual community. Perhaps more telling was what they did say:”

“I really don’t feel sorry for her. She paid a very steep price for being an arrogant religious fascist. Too bad for her.” (“Iris,” in a posting on the ACLU Online Forum)

“Quite frankly, if anyone in this case was being ‘persecuted’ it was Mr. Gutierrez. … Maybe this will give pause to other people who similarly try to ‘help’ homosexuals.” (“Silence Dogood,” on ACLU Online Forum)

“Maybe [Stachowicz’s murder] will strike fear in the hearts of a few fundamentalists. … Where do I send a check for his (Gutierrez’s) defense fund?” (James Wagner’s boyfriend, Barry’s posted response)

“The b—h had it coming to her. I’m glad he killed her. … I’m glad he killed her. The b—h deserved to die.” (San Francisco man on Yahoo)

As Folger puts it, “Instead of condemning this horrific murder, homosexuals danced on her grave, also.” So much for love and acceptance. While not all homosexuals are so ugly and poisonous, unfortunately many are.

But things will only get worse as Western nations pass various sorts of “hate crimes” legislation. “Those kind of hateful statements [made by homosexuals] are perfectly acceptable, free from any repercussions of any kind. They get their own forum at the ACLU. However, if two 16-year-old Crystal Lake girls say an unkind word about homosexuals and pass out a few flyers to their classmates, they are in ‘violation of an Illinois state hate crime statute.’ They face felony charges and are locked up in juvenile detention while bail is denied. Felony for a flyer or a forum for defilement? It’s not equal rights these people are after; it’s tyranny.”

She continues, “Haven’t you heard? Words of disagreement with the homosexual agenda are now illegal. Just ask more than 100 kids who were suspended for wearing T-shirts that expressed their biblical views on the topic. Shirts with Bible verses and such sayings as ‘Don’t touch God’s rainbow’ threw San Juan High School students in California out of school.”

These hate crime bills simply spell the end of freedom of speech, and a direct attack on biblical Christianity. Concludes Folger, “The alternative is 16-year-old girls imprisoned and ministers’ graves desecrated. It’s Catholic mothers murdered, and the thought police in schools. What do you want the future to look like?”

The Hebrew Scriptures long ago spoke of such a situation. The prophet Isaiah perfectly describes the moral freefall we are in where good and evil are trading places: “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” (Isaiah 5:20) Hate crime laws will simply accelerate our descent into the Brave New World of persecution and tyranny.


[1086 words]

60 Replies to “Who is Doing the Hatred?”

  1. I find it interesting that the ‘liberals’ claim that the ‘right wing’ is trying to build a Big Brother police state when they themselves are the ones pushing these hate crime laws.

    James Swanson, Tennesee, USA

  2. Hey,

    I just wanted to say that the danger of this article is placing both Christians and Homosexuals in such large groupings, pretty much suggesting that all Christians believe one thing and at least the majority of Homosexuals believe another.

    Life is much more complicated than that, as are people’s beliefs in what is right and what is wrong.

    Sure, the comments from homosexuals after the death of Falwell are horrible. I think it’s worth asking why these comments came rather than just saying where they came from. I think by just stating them you are in danger of fueling the Christian hatred towards homosexuals that unfortunately still exists. I’m sure that wasn’t your intention, but it doesn’t make it not the case.

    Benjamin Penfold-Marwick

  3. Dear Benjamin, Forgive me if I say this but when I hear the statement “Life is much more complicated than that” I immediately think that I am some kind of simpleton who has not yet reached that elevated level of higher understanding and knowledge.
    There is nothing complicated about the statistics that show that a third of HIV cases (figures supplied by the National Blood Service in the UK) are the result of 5% of the population who engage in homosexual sex. And we must not forget the long list of physical and mental harm that come to those who engage in this activity.
    We should have sympathy for those who are in bondage to homosexuality, drug addiction, alcoholism, pornography, lying, gossiping – actually all of us- but this should not override the righteous dislike of those who would attempt to desensitise us to the harms taking place. It is now or never for us to stand up speak the truth.

    David Skinner UK

  4. A cursory glance through the media offerings indicate that the “good is evil and evil is good’ philosophy permeates society more deeply than factions such as homosexuals and Christians. Gangs that kick to death unknowns without provocation – elderly women raped – children murdered – alcohol driven fights outside hotels lead to death – Police stabbed or shot – football fans fuel riots.

    The malaise of hate and violence has at least one author. So called “drama” entertainment and its increasing level of saturation apeares to have become society’s values indicator.

    Ray Robinson in oz

  5. So Falwell “respond(ed) to their hatred with love”?

    While nothing excuses physical threats, etc., it’s funny how you conspicuously failed to mention Falwell’s “Gays caused 9/11” rant, or his pathetically inadequate “apology”.

    What is this if not deliberate incitement of hatred?

    John Kloprogge

  6. Thanks John

    But why was his apology “inadequate”? He in fact apologized on numerous occasions. Is it rather that you simply refuse to receive the apology? And how many of those homosexuals that are cited above offered an apology?

    And if you are really concerned about hate crimes, are you actively seeking to have the homosexuals who made the comments above face the full weight of the law, or is this just selective outrage on your part? Is this simply more double standards from a noisy lobby group?

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  7. May I emphasise again the process that is taking place. Our infant and primary school children are being desensitised towards homosexuality; our junior children are being taught to explore and satisfy their curiousity regarding homosexuality and the final stage is that many of children will inevitably become willing accomplices to paedeophiles who must be salivating in anticipation at this moment. Perhaps the final stage will be when, if it has not already happened, the age of consent is lowered to 14 or even 12. It is time join up all the dots. Forget indulging in emotions of hatred. We should be acting.
    David Skinner, UK

  8. David Skinner, I don’t want to be rude, but you are really scaring me! To think that ALL cases of homosexuality cause ‘physical and mental harm’ and that accepting homosexuality as a norm at a young age will ‘inevitably’ lead to them becoming ‘willing accomplices to paedophiles’ is more than just a little bit of a jump. It’s downright ignorant. I don’t like to talk to you like you are a simpleton and I don’t mean to. If you really believe that God sees homosexuality as a sin, then believe it. God also said (well Jesus, but, you know, they’re the same and all that) ‘Judge not, lest ye be judged’. Do you know what that means? It means that if someone chooses to be gay (or is born gay, whatever your belief) then it’s not up to you to tell them that their choice is going to lead to kids being violated. In God’s eyes you don’t have that right.
    Benjamin Penfold-Marwick

  9. Thanks Benjamin

    You have of course selected the most abused and misused passage in Scripture. It is important to remember that every text without a context simply becomes a pretext. That is, this passage must be read in the light of its surrounding context, and the rest of the biblical revelation.

    Now I do not know where you are coming from: whether you consider yourself to be a Christian, or an unbeliever. If the latter, I can understand your selective use of the Bible. But if you are in fact a believer, then you really should know better.

    We are throughout Scripture enjoined to test all things, prove all things, discern, judge and make moral differentiation. Your comments simply reflects the spirit of the age, which is riddled with political correctness, moral relativism, and a mushy notion of tolerance.

    And I am sure David was not arguing that homosexuality is directly related to pedophilia. The sad truth is however that sometimes there is a connection. But even if there is not, we still have an obligation to promote that which is in the best interests of the community, of individuals, and of children. The homosexual lifestyle is a high-risk one, which for the simple reason of public health and safety, if no other, should not be glamorized nor idolized.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  10. Heya Bill

    I am a believer, yes. I know what you mean about taking scripture out of context also. I almost didn’t put that bit in there. Anyways, I have to admit that I am selective in my interpretations of what is in the Bible, because I weigh it up with my life experience. I have only known a handful of people who consider themselves homosexual. One of them also considers himself a Christian. I just don’t see how a man sleeping with another man consensually is a problem. I really don’t. I know that is a popular belief, but it is one that I hold also.

    Of course, interpretation of the Bible and the validity of the sources of each singular book in there is a whole other can of worms. I guess I just wanted to show that being a Christian and believing that homosexuality and wrong don’t necessarily go hand in hand. I think it is unfortunate that the majority of mainstream media portrays a Christian belief system that I don’t tie myself to completely. As I was semi ranting on earlier, I think that lumping people into belief boxes is dangerous.

    Anyhow, sorry to keep bitching. I really dig this site, btw.

    Benjamin Penfold-Marwick

  11. Many thanks Benjamin

    Good to know where you are coming from. And yes, the whole issue of interpretation is a big issue indeed.

    As to the issue of homosexuality: well, as with any other controversial ethical issue, for the believer it all boils down to who is the boss: is it God, our creator, redeemer, and judge, or is it ourselves? A Christian is by definition one who follows and submits to the Lordship of Christ.

    That is, when we come to Christ, we tell him we are no longer calling the shots, but he is. Thus we are called to obey God, and not pick and choose those bits which we want to follow. Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commands” (John 14:15). Thus being a real follower of Jesus means we trade in our opinions and preferences, and we start to obey God in what he has clearly commanded us.

    And God’s clear intention for human sexuality, from Genesis to Revelation, is in the context of male-female marriage, full stop. Thus not only is homosexuality wrong, but so is adultery, fornication, and so on. Whether a behaviour is consensual or not is beside the point. If three people claim to love each other and are consensual about their union, does that make it OK? Hardly.

    And God’s commands for us are for our good, as God told Moses (Deut.6:24 ). He knows that various kinds of sexual relationships outside of his good design will be harmful for us and society. Thus there are not only health risks associated with homosexual relations, but there are consequences for children and society as well.

    So it all gets down to this: if we claim to be followers of Jesus, then we do not declare what is right and wrong; he does. If we still want to be the boss, fine, but then we cannot pretend to be disciples of Jesus. It is a contradiction in terms to call Jesus Lord, but then to go on and do our own thing, contrary to his clear instructions.

    Sorry too if I am going on and on, but that is basic Christianity, and something those who call themselves Christians must adhere to, at the very minimum. Let me know what you think.

    Regards, Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  12. Dear Ben, forgetting religious beliefs, let us just look at the material facts that any parent can understand: although homosexuals make up no more than 5% of the population, they are responsible for almost half of HIV cases in the UK; secondly there are serious emotional and mental side effects of practising sodomy, eg., Gary Frisch the founder of Gaydar.com a gay dating agency, (hero and saint in the eyes of gays) recently fatally plunged from the eighth floor of his London flat with high levels of the anti-depressant drug, ketamine, in his blood; thirdly sodomy invariably leads to health problems such as : Anal Cancer, Chlamydia trachomatis, Cryptosporidium, Giardia lamblia, Herpes simplex virus, Human immunodeficiency virus, Human papilloma virus, Isospora belli, Microsporidia, Gonorrhea, Viral hepatitis types B & C, Syphilis; all of which put a huge burdern on the Health Service.
    I could go on and talk about the social consequences with regard to the eventual destruction of marriage and the family (Look at Sweden). I could also go on and talk about the ideology, evolutionary humanism, that is using homosexuality as a trojan horse to impose its own tyranical world view on all of society and the way this will have devastating consequences on education and the freedom to reason and debate without the thought police dragging you off for diversity re- education.
    Not all homosexuals are paedeophiles but a third of paedeophile crimes are committed by them. Let us say that percentage is 10% of homosexuals (who make up 5% of the population); that means 0.5% of the population are responsible for a third of sexual attacks on children. If as you suggest being gay is a choice and the gay population rises, the possibility of society reflecting Sodom does become a frightening reality. If you really want to see how our children are being groomed to become the victims of paedeophiles just go to Judith Reisman’s site: drjudithreisman.com, the white papers and read Crafting Bi/Homosexual Youth, Regent University Law Review [Acrobat PDF] [Vol. 14:283 2002].
    Forget the word judgemental and think discretion. You can exercise one without being the other.
    Sorry Bill, I will get off my soap box.
    David Skinner, UK

  13. Thanks David
    I would differ on one point: all the major studies on the question have found that homosexuals make up no more than 2% of the population.
    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  14. Yes Bill, I think this is so. It is just that the gay lobby claims that it is 10% if not higher; so as not to be too contentious, I said 5%. They are very good at playing the numbers game.
    David Skinner, UK

  15. David, I don’t even want to start to answer what you are posting. I just can’t see these statistics as proof. I’m not ignoring them. I just think that they are not black and white proof of what you are saying. Obviously we disagree, and that’s fine.

    Bill, about the whole giving up and following Jesus thing, I honestly find that hard to put into practice. I mean, I get it when it comes to sin and that sin is harmful to people and that is why Jesus would not want us to do certain things. This makes sense to me. What doesn’t make sense to me is two people of the same sex having a loving and caring committed relationship being a problem. “If you love me you will keep my commands”. Okay. I get that. I also see that Jesus said “Love one another as I have loved you and love your neighbour as yourself. If you obey these then you’re okay” (rough paraphrase from memory). What I don’t understand is how two people who love and care for each other and have sex with each other, but are from the same sex, goes against this. It just doesn’t make sense to me. I get that Sodom got burned down and all that, but even if you take that as absolute gospel truth, it is very easy to interpret that as people raping people and having multiple partners, etc, and not people loving people in healthy relationships.

    Anyhow, I’m sure you disagree and that’s okay. I know that I am a Christian even though this is my belief and you are even though your belief when it comes to this is different. I think when Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me” that this is all that truly matters. Maybe I’m making God unhappy by believing homosexuality is okay and that the old testament is not all factual, and maybe you are in what you believe, but in the end I think we just have to go with our guts on this one.

    Jesus died for us and living my life in a way that I believe is pleasing to God may be different to the way you live your life, but I think we are both trying to obey the one commandment that Jesus set in the New Testament and I think God would be okay with that.

    I hope I’m making sense and not sounding like a lunatic. I mean, Jesus hung out with tax collectors and all that. He didn’t walk around with t-shirts saying ‘I think tax collectors are all assholes’. Do you know what I mean?

    Anyway, cheers for the discussion. I think we should end it soon because this could go on forever ;P As long as we understand each other I think that’s okay.

    Benjamin Penfold-Marwick

  16. I’d just like to add one point. From a Christian perspective, homosexuality is not just wrong because it is by definition ‘sex outside of heterosexual marriage’, but is doubly wrong/sinful because it is also specifically prohibited in various Scriptures. Even if there were no health risks associated with homosexual behaviour, the Christian should still advocate against its acceptance in society because that is our duty in being ‘salt and light’.

    Ewan McDonald, Victoria

  17. Thanks for your response Benjamin

    But you again seem to be selective in your use of Scripture, picking those verses which suit you and ignoring those which don’t. But this goes back to what I wrote in my previous comment. This kind of selective obedience really translates thus: I am still calling the shots, I will determine what is right and wrong, and I will not let the God of the universe have his rightful place as boss, nor dictate to me what I must and must not do. With all due respect, Benjamin, this seems to be your position at the moment, if I am reading you rightly. And if that is your position, as I said before, one has to question whether one can call oneself a Christian, while refusing to let Christ be Lord.

    It is not about gut feelings. Feelings have nothing to do with it. It is all about acknowledging that we are finite, fallen sinners, and God has the right to make the rules. We do not make the rules and expect God to rubber stamp them. Sorry, but it does not work that way.

    The truth is, we are all “assholes” as you put it, facing a lost eternity. But Christ has come to offer forgiveness and newness of life, but we must come on his terms, not ours. If we insist on telling God what we will believe and what we will obey, and what is right and wrong, then he is still not Lord of our life, and we are still not right with God.

    So I plead with you to think more carefully about what you are saying, in the light of Scripture. Indeed, I encourage you to more closely read and pay attention to the New Testament, as a start. OK?

    (PS, what is not factual about the Old Testament?)

    Thanks again,
    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  18. Hey Bill,

    know this is the internet, and not be held as the most trusted of sources, but it’s not hard to find scientific evidence that goes against some of the old testament, eg How old the earth actually is, ridiculously similar stories in other cultures, like Noah’s arc and that kind of thing. I won’t point you to any because so much of it is biased towards slamming the entire Bible as useless over some things that I consider small. If you are interested in reading more about this kind of thing you’ll have zero trouble finding it.

    The mere fact that the books of the bible are written by so many different people, and that we are supposed to trust that those people who decided to canonize some books into the Bible we know today and leave others out, I do not like. It’s not like God got out his pen and paper and wrote the Bible. I know the ‘god breathed’ verse, and I know Jesus used scriptural references. That’s why I still read the thing instead of just throwing it all out of the window. I still have to go with my gut. Maybe it’s the phrasing I’m using or something. It’s not like I ignore God’s word completely. It’s just that most of it speaks to me on a very deep, spiritual level, while other parts just don’t sit right with me. I honestly believe that if we are being extremely honest, that every single choice you make is made by you. Sure, you can choose to follow the bible to the letter or whatever, but it’s your choice. This idea that God takes over makes no sense to me.

    As to whether or not I am a Christian, I know I am a Christian. I have a personal relationship with Christ, I have had experiences which science cannot explain, I believe. Like I said, there are differences in our belief, but that’s fine. You think I’m wrong and I don’t. That’s okay. Jesus died for both of us and we’ve both accepted this.

    I do need to read the Bible more than I do. I think everyone does. That doesn’t mean that I’m still not going to come to it with my own baggage. I mean, every single person brings their own history and understanding of the world to the Bible and to church. This means that the details are going to be swayed towards their singular way of thinking, because of who they are and how God made them unique. This is a given. It is impossible to get the exact same message to two different people, let alone the whole world. It just can’t be done. I think if the crux of Christianity, which I see as the acceptance of Jesus’ gift to us (dying on the cross for us), gets across then that’s great. Life is too dense and too complicated and questions of morality and what is right are far too specific to each individual to say ‘this entire book here that is written by a bunch of people is exactly how all of you should live’. It’s too complicated for everyone to get the same thing out of a biblical book.

    I even read biblical books in my own life and get taught different things on different occasions, depending on where my life and my head are at at the time.

    I hope I’m making sense. I just want you to get that I am not a fundamentalist Christian, but I still have every right to call myself a follower and believer of Christ because I am one. Do you know what I mean?

    Anyhow, the whole ‘asshole’ thing, how we are all sinners? I get that. That’s the basis of Christian belief. We are not worthy to see heaven without accepting Jesus’ gift. I still don’t believe homosexuality is wrong. I’m sorry if you think that makes me a hypocrite, but I have my reasons for believing this as you have yours for your beliefs. I don’t think it’s a cop out. It’s not like I’m just going through life not questioning my actions in light of how God would want me to live. I just think that there are more important things than who I’m having sex with. The way I treat and relate to people, and the fact that I am basically the face of Jesus on the earth, (not me singularly, but all people who call themselves Christians are the witness, the face of Jesus for non believers), are what matters to me and I think what matters to God.

    Anyhow, phew. This is one of the most interesting post discussions I’ve had in a while. I actually prefer that there are people with altering beliefs, as long as the core is solid. It makes us human, and we were created as such.

    Benjamin Penfold-Marwick

  19. Dear Bill,

    I might have accepted Falwell’s “apologies” if he had *meant* it, and ceased his unacceptable behaviour of preaching intolerance. He did not.

    And to answer your question on hate crimes, let’s have a look at why they generally carry higher penalties: because the injury suffered by the victim and by society is greater.

    That is, the stabbings, beatings, etc. are more vicious. And the fear generated in the victim’s minority group is more intense.

    Perhaps if Christians were a targetted minority rather than a triumphalist majority, I might support extra measures to protect them.

    It’s not “Christians” I have a problem with, not at all! It’s people who spread intolerance and block measures granting equality and dignity.

    Your debate on literalism vs contextualism is interesting. My view is:

    If a loving God does exist, I believe He would not deny same-sex couples the chance to physically express their love for each other. And if God isn’t so loving, He is not worthy of our worship.

    (And by the way, you say homosexuality is risky? I’m yet to suffer any illness related to my sexuality, after 23 years of being gay. Why is that?)

    Regards, John Kloprogge, Croydon VIC

  20. First time greetings to Bill and everyone,

    I have a few comments.

    Benjamin, it seems to me that you are making a common but erroneous assumption about the nature and sanctifying effect of human love.

    I believe that you have adopted a subtle but fallacious error that concludes that mere human love by itself is wholly capable of sanctifying a loving sexual relationship. Love that originates from the ‘desperately wicked’ human heart (whether it is agape, phileo, or even eros) is by itself absolutely incapable of sanctifying a sexual union. Such a concept is clearly non-Biblical and unscriptual to say the least.

    A loving heterosexual couple, who has sex outside of the bonds of marriage, sins no less impertinently than two loving homosexuals having sex do. Any act of fornication or adultery is sin in the eyes of God. Sexual immorality seeks only to turn a virtue into a vice, and completely ignores God’s holy will. Sex in such a sordid context can never amount to anything more than a blatant an act of idolatry and willful disobedience. Because fornication and adultery are sin, they will always reside outside of the lawfully prescribed boundaries of Godly marriage.

    Malachi 2:15 is the key as to why God instituted Holy Matrimony. He was and still is seeking Godly children! How can two men who supposedly love each other fulfill God’s amazing design and plan? How can they leave their father and mother and cleave together as husband and wife and become one flesh as God commands? How can they be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and ‘produce’ Godly offspring? Homosexual activity in this light has always been an act of open defiance and rebellion against God!

    Benjamin do you know that Scripture teaches we are not our own, but we have been bought with a price? That the earth is the Lord’s and everything in it? That we are God’s workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works?

    I now ask you, how can two men seeking to gratify the supposititious love of their wicked self-centered desires (by openly defying God and his holy commands) wreak anything but havoc and harm?

    I recommend you study the ‘Harm Principle’ as elucidated by John Stuart Mills and Wilhelm von Humboldt to understand where the roots of your thinking originate from in this ‘complicated’ issue. When a person poses a question such as, What harm can it be for blank. They are positing the Harm Principle. It is an atheistic self-centered humanist philosophy steeped in hedonism (pleasure is all-good), utilitarianism (seek pleasure avoid pain), and pragmatism (the end justifies the means).

    Only a God ordained union between one man and one woman can be sanctified and holy, everything else according to God’s word is sin. I leave you with these words of God from Paul:

    Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    Kim L. Ruhl Lawrence, KS

  21. Benjamin Penfold-Marwick, the sort of hatred by homosexuals is without parallel among Christians. But the “hate crime” (as opposed to “love crime”, no doubt) putschers don’t care about the hatred of Christians by homosexuals that has already killed Mary Stachowicz. And homonazis in Sweden have already made it illegal to preach against homosexuality from the Bible, and 63-year-old Pastor Åke Green was jailed for it.

    Also, Jesus condemned only hypocritical judgment, as is clear from Matthew 7:1–5:

    Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

    Indeed, Jesus commanded righteous judgment in John 7:24, a passage we hear much less about:

    Do not judge by appearances, but judge with righteous judgment.

    Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

  22. Thanks again John

    But one should never tolerate that which is wrong, or that which is harmful or that which is contrary to the public good. I have argued elsewhere, as you know, the case for not granting special rights for homosexuals. There is no right to “homosexual marriage”. Never has been, never will be, just as there is no right for threesomes to marry, or football teams to marry.

    And again, if you are such a supporter of hate crime laws, will you be calling for far stiffer penalties for the homosexual who murdered Mary Stachowicz? Or is this just all one way traffic again?

    And many would argue Christians are a targeted minority in this country, and becoming more so each passing day. Will you stand up for this minority as well?

    If God exists, then he, not us, decides what is right, and what is acceptable behaviour. You simply reflect the secular humanism and postmodernism so prevalent today that argues truth and morality are relative, and if there is a God, he is to submit to my tastes, not me to his commands. Such selective acceptance of deity just will not wash John.

    As to your last comment: a) be very thankful for this, b) realise it is early days yet, and c) do not commit the fallacy of extrapolating from your situation to all homosexuals. Disease and illness is rampant in the homosexual community. This is simply borne out by the evidence, and doctors dealing with them know this only too well.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  23. Thanks again Benjamin

    But what you seem to be saying, once again, is you are calling the shots, and God has no right to be the boss. You are sitting in judgment on God’s word, deciding what you like and what you don’t like. I again remind you that if a person claims to be a follower of Jesus, then Jesus is Lord, and we are the servant, not the other way around.

    Passages like 1 John 2:3,4 are pretty strong, and we need to take them seriously: “We know that we have come to know God if we obey his commands. The man who says, ‘I know him,’ but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

    With all do respect, experience itself does not determine one’s standing with God. Cultists, New Agers, drug addicts and even secularists all have “experiences”. But that does not determine whether we are right with God. What determines it is if we are lining up with what he said to us. We either accept his version of events, and his requirements for getting right with him, or we do not.

    I again urge you to go back and start reading the gospels, and see what they are saying, instead of what you or I are saying.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  24. Dear Bill, I agree with Ben’s statement that “This is one of the most interesting post discussions I’ve had in a while.” and indeed the question as to why anyone could criticsize a committed, loving and caring sexual relationship is difficult to answer – except when one applies this to other sexual relationships. What about the equally loving and caring sexual relationship between a father and daughter, father and son, two sisters, two brothers, a man and his two or hundred lesbian wives, or man and his horse. or even between a man and his best friend’s wife. It seems to me Ben that you interpret the Bible through your life’s experiences rather than interpeting your life through the Bible.
    David Skinner, UK

  25. Hi Bill,

    Nowhere else am I misrepresented as much as I am on this site. It’s classic “straw man fallacy”. Let me correct a few things:

    Indeed, one should “never tolerate that which is wrong”. However, I don’t think same-sex marriage is wrong. (Nor do I think it ss marriage is comparable with polygamy). My views are clear on this.

    I made my point about “targetted Christians”. However, ABS figures tell us Christians aren’t a minority. Nor do I think they’re victimised for their religion.

    You seem to think I “make up” what is right/wrong according to what I want to do. I don’t. I do what my *conscience* tells me to do, and it prevents me doing many things. I don’t choose my conscience. From what you’re saying, conscience is unnecessary. That’s a far scarier proposition to me.

    As you know, I reject relativism. I believe there are many universal rights and wrongs. It’s our job to discover what they are (e.g. by asking, what causes harm). Just because an explanation is convenient (e.g. “holy texts”), doesn’t mean it’s right.

    On homosexuals and health: Just as it’s wrong to generalise by “extrapolating from (my) situation to all homosexuals”; it’s also wrong to generalise by suggesting that ill-health is inherent to gay relationships.

    Even if “disease and illness is rampant in the homosexual community”, I needn’t worry, because my partner and I are happily monogamous.

    Conclusion? Homosexuality, in itself, is neither immoral or risky.

    Regards, John Kloprogge, Croydon VIC

  26. Hi Bill,

    The claim that Christians are obliged to speak out against homosexuality has always puzzled me. If the Gospels are taken to be the spoken word of Jesus Christ, why is it that Christ himself never uttered a single word about homosexuality?

    The texts that are always used to justify Christian condemnation of homosexuality are Leviticus and Romans, and both passages have been shown to have ambiguous interpretations. Leviticus also proscribes a number of dietary and other restrictions that are routinely ignored today as cultural oddities.

    Would we not be better Christians is we attended to our own lives and sins instead of pointing the finger at others? Surely it is up to the individuals concerned to act according to their own conscience and make their own peace with their God? Why is it anyone else’s business? And please don’t give me the health excuse. Smoking and obesity are far bigger problems in society but we don’t hear Christians passing judgment on those issues.

    It seems to me that some folks have an inbuilt tendency to find fault in others, and they use their supposedly Christian faith to justify bigotry.

    This is taken to extreme by the Westboro Baptists. Who indeed is doing the hatred?

    Amanda O’Hara, Kyneton, Vic.

  27. Thanks John

    But we have been over this ground before. Your claim to reject relativism does not satisfy, however. What is your basis for universal, objective moral standards? All you can come up with is discovering “what causes harm”. But not only is that inadequate, it cuts both way. It is exactly because homosexuality is such a harmful and high risk behaviour that so many people find it morally wrong. So by your own moral code, your behaviour becomes immoral.

    And I am not generalizing about the high risks of homosexual health. I have based my finding over the years on two primary sources: leading medical journals, and the homosexual press. Which of those two sources do you object to?

    Again, we are all happy that you are monogamous. That simply puts you in the minority camp in the homosexual community. But stop acting as if you represent all homosexuals.

    Thus your conclusion does not follow at all, because your premises have not been substantiated.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  28. Thanks Amanda

    But if someone is seeking to break into your home, some sort of response by you is both reasonable and justified. Many people, and not just Christians, feel there has been a homosexual offensive; one which is demanding special rights; which is seeking to overturn the institutions of marriage and family; and which is often seeking to force Christian and other religious groups to bow to their demands. In such a context, believers have every right to stand up for what they see is of value. Religious folk are simply responding to the attack on their faith, beliefs and practices. If you don’t like the response, then maybe you can ease up on the attack.

    And to paraphrase your opening question: ‘The claim that Christians are obliged to speak out against slavery (or spousal abuse, or any number of other issues) has always puzzled me. Jesus spoke very little about this, so why should we? The passages at best are vague, so let’s just let things be, and stop pointing the finger.’

    Millions of blacks today are glad Christians of several centuries ago did not take your less than helpful advice.

    And you seem concerned about “bigotry”. Does that mean you utterly renounce the homosexual bigotry shown toward Mary Stachowicz, and many other cases like it?

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  29. The claim that:–

    …Christ himself never uttered a single word about homosexuality

    has always puzzled me…
    “Haven’t you read,” [Christ] replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?”

    Please don’t give me the:–

    Why is it anyone else’s business?

    Christ came into the world to allow people to escape from the homosexual deathstyle and its consequences.

    It seems to me that some folks have an inbuilt tendency to find fault in Christians who believe what their Saviour said, and they use their supposedly Christian faith to justify this bigotry.

    Michael Watts

  30. Bill,

    How can you compare a request by same-sex couples for equal rights before the law with someone breaking into your home? How does the fact that same-sex couples may want the same inheritance and property rights as heterosexual couples affect the latter’s situation in any way at all? Why is it mostly conservative Christians who see some kind of threat here? The rest of society has moved on from such discrimination.

    Your comparison with slavery is very strange. Slavery was strongly supported by Christians in the American South, based on biblical authority. But putting that aside, Christians are right to speak out against injustice in cases where one party is being victimised by another. But what have those examples got to do with a consensual same-sex relationship?

    I don’t support bigotry in any form. But homosexuals have been vilified and subjected to discrimination by society in general for a long time. It is hardly surprising, though unacceptable, that some of them will react very badly towards Christians who still refuse to acknowledge their right to exist. After all, they are God’s creations too.

    Amanda O’Hara, Vic.

  31. Dear Amanda, Christ never mentioned a lot of things. Just because he never said anything about drugs doesn’t mean drugs is OK. Because of Jewish culture, homosexuality was an extremely rare crime, more rare than incest. If Christ had mentioned this, everyone would have been saying, “Hey, who is doing this?” One thing he did do was to emphatically proscribe – not just describe- all sexual relationships apart from that between a man and woman. Read Matthew 19:4. We talk about it today because homosexuality is on the increase – along with drugs and AIDS. But if you want an unambiguous biblical text why not read Jude? What do you make of that?

    Unlike smoking, sex is a powerful and often unstable force, which when harnessed and contained within the God -given institution of marriage can be the cause for much blessing, in that it results in children, families, community and nation, but which, when allowed to roam wherever and in whatever form it wants, outside the safe bounds of marriage, becomes the cause of world-wide misery: criminality, AIDS, Sexually Transmitted Infections, unwanted pregnancies and the bloody carnage of abortions taking place in a hospital “near you.” For serious health and economic reasons it is vital that this issue is properly discussed. Our appetite for sex has way far more influence on our behaviour than our taste for fags. And when was the last time you campaigned against smoking and over eating?

    Thirdly “ no man is an island;” My behaviour does not just effect me; it impacts on those around me. The picture you paint of people just doing what they feel led to do without any regard for those around them looks remarkably like hell. There is also a big difference between judging someone in a condemnatory sense (leave God to do that) and simply pointing out to our children that fornication, adultery, incest, bestiality and sodomy are bound to lead to despair and destruction. This is not just busy bodying, being a sticky beak. This is simple health and safety and you would be the first to complain if someone had not warned you about the dangers of walking too close to a precipice – or would you? God says, Keep as far away from the edge as you can Amanda, not because He is a kill-joy but because he loves you.
    David Skinner, UK

  32. It has long baffled me why people who identify as Christians spend so much of their time demonising gays and lesbians but can rarely be heard to say a word about poverty and oppression. I think some believers would be better serverd staying out of the so-called ‘culture wars’ debate and focussing on issues which the bible is concerned with. After all, Christ’s entire message is contrary to the sort of demonisation that goes on against gays and lesbians and as a believer it troubles me that this issue is being focussed on out of all proportion to other pressing matters such as suffering and speaking for the voiceless.
    Mark Wilson

  33. Associated Press in Rome, Monday June 11, 2007, The Guardian: The head of Italy’s influential bishops’ conference has received a second envelope containing bullets and a death threat, following comments he made opposing same-sex unions, news agencies said yesterday. An envelope containing three bullets arrived on Saturday at the Genoa archdiocese of Monsignor Angelo Bagnasco. A single bullet was sent on April 27. Mgr Bagnasco, who is leading a campaign against legislation that would give many legal rights to unmarried couples, including gay ones, was given bodyguards several weeks ago after graffiti threatening him was scrawled on buildings.
    David Skinner, UK

  34. Thanks again Amanda

    Its called an illustration, meant to show that when someone comes under attack, generally there is a right to self-defence. This is no mere ‘request for equal rights’ as you euphemistically put it, but a frontal assault on the institutions of marriage and family, something which many will not let go without a fight.

    You may object to biblical morality, which is up to you, but Christians have as much right in a democratic society to stand up for what they believe in as anyone else. And please don’t lecture us as to what we should and should not speak out against. As long as this nation remains a democracy, then Christians will use their rights to speak out on those issues which are of concern to them.

    And as has been argued elsewhere, homosexual relationships – whether consensual or not – have ramifications for all of society, thus we all have a right to share our concerns about them.

    Finally ‘I don’t support bigotry in any form. But Christians have been vilified and subjected to discrimination by society in general for a long time. It is hardly surprising, though unacceptable, that some of them will react very badly towards homosexuals and secularists who still refuse to acknowledge their right to exist. After all, they are God’s creations too.’

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  35. Thanks Mark

    But I and others do speak about poverty and oppression. Perhaps you just do not like the fact that our analyses of the problems, and our preferred solutions, differ from yours.

    And if you really believe the Bible is not concerned about such crucial areas as human sexuality, the nature of the family, and respect for human life, then you must be reading a different book than what I am reading.

    And I would think there is no more voiceless group undergoing more suffering on the planet than the unborn who are killed by the millions each year. I trust you are tirelessly standing up for those suffering, voiceless victims, Mark.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  36. Bill
    Of all the bizarre things you have said, this is probably the best:
    “Finally ‘I don’t support bigotry in any form. But Christians have been vilified and subjected to discrimination by society in general for a long time. It is hardly surprising, though unacceptable, that some of them will react very badly towards homosexuals and secularists who still refuse to acknowledge their right to exist. After all, they are God’s creations too.’ ”
    True, fundamentalist Christians are being victimised today, and have been for the last 5 or maybe 10 years at a stretch. But that is hardly a ‘long time’ in comparison to the discrimination of homosexuals which has been going on for thousands of years and almost every culture.
    Please save the sob story. Be free to complain about the last decade, but don’t you dare try and compare your sufferring and victimisation to the victimisation of homosexuals
    Matt Page

  37. Thanks Matt

    I was actually paraphrasing another commentator with that line, but the point remains. Jesus Christ was of course the first Christian to suffer and die for his faith, and it has been happening ever since. In the last century alone around 45 million Christians were martyred for their faith. Thus this is no sob story, simply the facts.

    And as I have argued before, it is no discrimination when homosexuals are not legally allowed to marry, adopt children, etc. They are simply demanding something they are not entitled to, so talk of discrimination is out of place here.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  38. Matt,
    You talk about homosexuals being “victimised”. Who is the real victim when two people of the same sex raise a child? Surely, if you stopped feeling sorry for and pretending that homosexuals are victims, you can see that it is the child who will be the victim. Can you imagine growing up with two dads and no mum or vice versa? Will that child ever be normal? Will that child ever have a normal human relationship? This social experiment has simply gone too far. In a generation or two people will look back on this with disbelief, that our generation could actually do this to children.
    Craig Manners, Melbourne

  39. No wonder so many young people are struggling with identity, their family tree is unknown and lost in same-sex relationships.

    A child needs its own biological mother and father to be its parents. This is basic, right and secure.

    Male and female do matter, they each bring something so essential, so fundamental, so unique to the family, that’s why we need both of them and it does matter.

    Marriage is the only currency of comittment the world understands.

    Judith Bond

  40. If you truly love someone then there is no way that you would expose them to the many infections including HIV/AIDS that result from male to male sex.

    As to the people that Jesus surrounded himself with, all gave up their previous lifestyles once they became His followers. Judas unfortunately was the odd one out. He chose as his God, the 30 pieces of silver.

    When the Christians were being killed for their faith, it was said of them- “look how they smile”. On the other hand, there is no report of Judas smiling.

    Madge Fahy

  41. Matt, there must be something democratic about the Judeo-Christian heritage if the only country in the Middle East which has a gay pride march is Israel. Similarly, in the rest of the world, it tends to be countries with a Christian background that allow the same.
    James Forsyth

  42. Bill has made a key point in his comment to Matt above. What the ‘Christian’ advocates of homosexual ‘rights’ fail to consider is from where comes the source of human rights? From a Christian perspective the only legitimate rights we have are those given to us by our Creator. Rights that seek to either go beyond or against those found in the Bible are by definition of humanistic origin. For a Christian there are no ‘homosexual rights’ just as there are no ‘adulterer’s rights’ or ‘fornicator’s rights’. All individuals including those claiming to be homosexual are entitled to the basic rights of life and justice, but none of us has a ‘right’ to go on sinning nor should we expect society or government to reward our sin by granting us special license to indulge in it.

    Ewan McDonald, Victoria

  43. Hello
    James, I’m sorry, you are misinterpreting me. I’m railing on about gay bashings, sodomy laws, gay hangings that still happen today in Iran, the fact that 30 years ago homosexuality was considered a disease, etc. That’s the type of victimisation I’m referring to. And I agree totally with what you are saying, but you can’t deny that this victimisation occurs in Christian countries.
    Craig, why you brought up raising children is beyond me. I am gay and I don’t want children, I never said I did, so why did you feel the need to bring it up?
    Madge, I’m truly sorry that you hold such naive beliefs about HIV/AIDS. It really seems like many of you are stuck in the 80s when HIV was just beginning. True, HIV levels are back high again which is terrible, but please stop generalising HIV to all gay people. It is not fair and has been out of date for a long time. And the comment:
    “If you truly love someone then there is no way that you would expose them to the many infections including HIV/AIDS that result from male to male sex.”
    This comment is also unfair, because it only applies to the idiot gay men who engage in unsafe sex. Once again, unnecessary and outdated generalisation.
    And, Bill, I know you will say that I and all the other monogomous gays shouldnt generalise our experience because we are a minority in a minority, but still, these comments made by you and members of your site are harmful and distressing to me, and are just plain insensitive to people like me who don’t want to marry my boyfriend, don’t want to have kids, and don’t want to be “ex-gay”
    Matt Page

  44. Thanks Matt

    But as I have said before, it is not insensitive to speak the truth, and the most loving thing we can do for people is seek to steer them clear of harmful lifestyles. It is out of love that believers seek to warn people about their unhelpful and risky lifestyles. HIV/AIDS is still overwhelmingly brought on by male homosexual activity in Australia. Anyone who cares about the spread of this horrible disease should be doing all they can to prevent the conditions that bring it about. There is nothing insensitive about such concerns.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  45. Bill
    “the most loving thing we can do for people is seek to steer them clear of harmful lifestyles.”
    That is true…but it doesnt follow that we should steer homosexuals from homsexuality itself. It follows that more needs to be done to educate them on the dangers of unsafe sex and drug use, and to encourage monogamous homosexual relationships. And you know what, while the “gay agenda” has had a damaging effect on the Church, it has actually improved monogamy in gays. Speak to any gay man in their 40s and they all marvel at the fact that these days, the number of monogomous gay men under the age of 30 is increasing. The more monogamy, the less safe sex, and the less burden on society. Harmony amongst Christians and homosexuals is definitely a possibility, and in my view, inevitable
    Matt Page

  46. Thanks again Matt

    Yes promiscuity of all kinds is harmful and wrong, and monogamy is to be preferred. But that is not the end of the matter. We are not designed by nature or God to function outside of heterosexuality. It is not only a dead end for the human race, but it is far from good for individuals as well. Even the pagan Greek philosophers could speak of the greatest good as being about living according to our purposes and design.

    As to Christians getting along with others: on the one hand, yes. Jesus was a friend of sinners, and the only difference between you and me is that I am a sinner who has admitted my sinfulness and need, and availed myself of God’s only appointed means of getting right with him. We are all sinners in need of salvation, and Jesus invites us to come to him, but on his terms, not ours.

    A Christian, very simply put, is someone who follows and obeys Christ. Thus it is not up to me to call the shots, or determine what is right and wrong. Jesus is either lord of all or he is not lord at all. And Jesus, along with father God, has fully laid out the right and proper means of human sexuality. It is in the context of male-female marriage, full stop.

    Thus while I can have friends with all sorts of people, I as a believer must submit myself to the God of the universe, and his design for human sexuality, and not pick and choose which morality I will accept. There are moral absolutes in the world, in other words, because there is personal moral law giver. I must take my marching orders from him, and not pretend that I in fact am the master of the universe.

    And love, as I stated before, is willing the highest good for the other person. Homosexuality is a bondage, not a highest good. It does not reflect they way we were meant to operate. God’s laws are for our good. When we violate those laws, it is we who suffer. Thus all Christians want the best for all people – whether homosexual or not – and that means pointing them in the direction of the life-giving freedom that only comes from a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  47. Actually the most loving thing the church and any Christian can do for anyone practicing homosexuality is to tell them the truth concerning sin and God’s wrath. All those who practice sin, including those who practice the sin of sodomy, are under a death sentence that can be repealed only through repentance and trust in the atoning death of Jesus Christ. Harmony in the sense of agreement between Christians and those who identify as homosexuals (I say ‘those who identify as homosexuals’ because there is no such person as a homosexual – there is only men and women who practice homosexuality) is not possible wherever the Bible is regarded as true.

    Ewan McDonald, Victoria

  48. wow, ten days worth of comments. Anyone can choose a lifestyle but if their choices affect negatively the well being of another, then it is irresponsibility. God created one man, one woman with unique features for procreation. Whether you want children or not, homosexuality is outside godly principles. When man interferes with nature, the consequences are disastrous, it is evident around us, the health issues, the climate change, the wars etc, When homosexuals decide to have children or adopt some, they are creating a very lost and confused generation who would then create yet another. God values all man and women and created us to be unique, to be proud of who we are and not to live under a facade of another gender.
    Any form of sex outside a heterosexual relationship is abnormal because your physical and hormonal features will not support that. How would you provide sex education to a child? would you tell them that sex between two men is normal, how are you going to describe the process, won’t this be confusing to the child

    Jessie Ho, WA

  49. In the West, homosexuals are a politically protected group, while Christians can be vilified (esp. by homosexuals) without any punishment. For more, read Janet Folger’s The Criminalization of Christianity (I heard her speak at the American Vision conference a few weeks ago).

    Indeed, homosexuals are mistreated in Iran. That is a curious blind spot of the Left, who are constantly appeasing and whitewashing such dictatorships, while railing against the West. And where are the feminists who should be speaking against our enemies’ repression of women?

    Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

  50. Jonathan,

    You say Christians can be vilified in the West. Have you not heard of Victoria’s ‘Racial and Religious Tolerance Act’, which sought to prevent incitement to hatred against religious people? If that no longer protects Christians, it is because Christians fought to have it scrapped.

    The reason our society is more civilised than certain dictatorships is that our activists campaign to advance equality, rather than drag us back to Iranian-style theocracy. I can see which way you’d rather us go.

    Your misrepresentation of gays, feminists and ‘the Left’ is almost as bad as your misrepresentation of science.

    Regards, John Kloprogge, Croydon VIC

  51. I am no longer young and I cannot say that I will be disappointed to leave this world.
    Years ago I fought in a war to give freedom of speech for all Australians and to maintain a lifestyle that we all enjoyed.
    I now find that my right to reply; to hold a view that is different has now been destroyed.
    It is now politically correct to voice opinions that are contrary to community standards and that to stand and oppose them earns you the title of being a biased bigot, a radical right winger, a person speakingout of fear.
    Alternate life stylers want to have their inclinations recognised but they still want to enjoy the fruits of a heterosexual union – children – I refer to the recent adoption case of two same sex persons in West Australia.
    They want set their own rules for lifestyle but want to be seen to be part of a community that rejects their standards.
    They want to maintain a promiscuous lifestyle yet enjoy the role reserved for those people maintaining a life of propriety.
    The bible says that a time would come when good would be called bad and bad would be called good – have we reached this stage?
    Has Australia sunk to such a level?
    When a person joins a team, a group or a community they agree to abide by the standards of that organization.
    If they oppose the regulations then it is very simple, don’t be part of it, form another group.
    Jim Sturla

  52. Sorry John, but Victoria’s RRTA was never meant to protect Christians. Quite the opposite, as I have written elsewhere.
    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  53. John Kloprogge talks nonsense. Of course I’ve heard of Victoria’s fascist “anti-vilification” bill. It is the one that dragged two Christian pastors through the courts for daring to make Christians laugh at some home truths about Islam.

    OK John, where is the protection when gays, feminists, islamofascists and leftists bad-mouth Christians? Actually, I don’t think it should be a crime; it’s those politically correct “victim groups” who have invented a “right” not to be offended, with the corollary of making offending them a crime. That’s why Sweden has a homonazi law that resulted in the imprisonment of 63-year-old Pastor Åke Green for daring to preach from the Bible about homosexuality.

    But while the victicrats are very thin-skinned about the slightest offence to them, they demand the thickest skin from their Christian targets.

    Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

  54. You are quite right Jim.These people want the best of both worlds, and anyone who opposes them are branded as “bigots” as one letter-writer in the Sunday Herald-Sun was recently. They demand “free speech” but as soon get the upper hand, they call in the dogs of “political correctness” and one-sided “vilificaton” laws to intimidate all opposition.

    The whole scenario has been choreographed with diabolical cunning by secular humanists and athiests in positions of political,educational and media influence who want to destroy the Judeo-Christian basis on which Australian society is built. Then substitute an anti-Christian, “Secular Humanist” society.

    AA Hoysted

  55. Hi Bill,
    As I am currently studying a Bachelor of Education course at uni i am required to do research on the health of students including their sexuality. Although I am not an expert on society, I found some very interesting facts about homosexuality and have included some references for you to back up my argument. I believe that you have misinterpreted some myths and facts and would like to help you set them straight.
    The main reason why im blurting out all these facts is because this is an emotive argument, it’s all based on emotions with no evidence to back it up. There’s nothing wrong with arguing for something that your passionate about but please, can we get the facts right? And yes i am welcome to any facts you may have also as long as you provide some references for me. Please do not quote the bible to me because I believe that the bible was created for people to make their own interpretation of it and how they want to live their lives.

    Jenny Kloprogge

  56. Thanks Jenny

    But of course as someone with a predetermined agenda on all this, you would be sceptical wouldn’t you? The truth is, there are mountains of information on all of this if you are really interested in following the evidence where it leads, instead of just pushing an agenda.

    Many hundreds of books and articles can be consulted on all this. My own book on the subject (out in the near future hopefully) assembles much of this data together in one place. With some 700 footnotes (most from medical journals, scientific journals, and the homosexual press itself), it is a fully documented and referenced look at every issue you raise here.

    The truth is out there. The real question is are you willing to avail yourself of it, or continue to deny facts to push your own radical agenda.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  57. QUOTE: It follows that more needs to be done to educate them on the dangers of unsafe sex and drug use, and to encourage monogamous homosexual relationships.
    Now who is living in cloud cuckoo land? When AIDS first hit Australia back in the early 80s, it was nearly exclusive to homosexuals. The homosexualists worked overtime to deflect the truth with all sorts of denials. They worked overtime to keep it under wraps so that no one needed to worry about unbridled sex amongst homosexuals. It seemed that the main reason for it was unprotected sodomy. Their plan which was swallowed hook line and sinker by the State Labor Government to take the heat of homosexuals was to advocate education. They did a good job of that with posters and leaflets in all the homosexual venues and adverts in homosexual magazines, so no one was ignorant of what was happening. One of their favourite slogans was “If it is not on, it is not on.” Sad to say it was all a waste of time as you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. The homosexuals were not going to give up on their unprotected sodomy. When the education campaign failed with increases in AIDS, the cry was more education. When it failed again the cry was more education. As a result, I read recently that AIDS cases have gone up 40% amongst homosexuals year on year. Dennis Altman on an ABC Compass programme last year said that monogamy is not something that homosexuals are interested in. It was said in the context of homosexual marriage. So he is admitting that sleeping around is the way to go even if you are “married.” I have read other articles written by homosexuals that said monogamy is a figment of people’s imagination for the homosexual. So, they have been confronted all over the place with education about the topic and they don’t want monogamy, so what are you left with? Simple. AIDS. So what they need educating about is what they are doing. What they need to be told is that sodomy is the best aid to a life of AIDS so if you don’t want to ruin your life don’t sodomise…AT ALL because condoms are not infallible.
    Roger Marks

  58. Leviticus 18 King James Version (KJV)

    18 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

    2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the Lord your God.

    3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

    4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.

    5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the Lord.

    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Good grief…how does it get any PLAINER than that ? These words NEED no “interpretation”. There they are…plain and simple.

    As for Jesus not mentioning various topics : There were 400 years between The Old Testament and The New Testament. Obviously, God’s Word had ‘held up’ for those 400 years (and now, beyond).

    If God Himself ALREADY said it – and people followed God’s Commandments , WHY would Jesus “need” to repeat it ?

    1 Peter 1:25 – but the word of the Lord endures forever.”[a]

    And this is the word that was preached to you” .

    Malachi 3:6 –
    For I am the Lord, I change not

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *