There’s never a dull moment when you have an interactive blogsite. Every day you get all sorts of folks sending in comments. Often they are terrific comments sent in by terrific people. But nearly as often you will get nutters, trolls, secular lefties, atheists, militants and haters coming along as well. That always make things interesting.
I would have posted thousands of comments from the latter group and tried to interact with them. But many of these comments can only go straight into the bin, given that theyfail my commenting rules. But all this keeps me off the streets I guess.
Here I want to speak about those who come seeking to argue about Scripture and theology. Some are well-meaning and care about sound doctrine. I will leave them out of the discussion here. But there are those who come here saying the most ludicrous, brainless and unbiblical stuff.
I am always amazed at how they can manage to get things so very wrong. And over the years I have discovered that there are at least three groups of these folks. Some are just angry atheists who will attack any Christian for any reason. Some are clearly not Christians but they come here pretending to be. But as soon as you see what they have written it is obvious where they are coming from.
And then there is a third group who do indeed appear to be Christians, but they nonetheless are so woefully biblically ignorant and so theologically mixed-up that you do not know if you should laugh or cry when you see their stuff. Sometimes it is not quite clear which of the three groups a person is a part of.
But I sure get lots of these sorts of comments coming in. Let me deal with just one of them that was sent in a while ago. It had to do with a piece I wrote called “Still You Have Not Returned To Me.” That was about how God will often use various means to try to get our attention, to get us to return to him, and so on. That piece is found here: https://billmuehlenberg.com/2021/09/19/still-you-have-not-returned-to-me/
Some of these divine means include things like plagues or other calamities. I mentioned some biblical examples of this, and asked whether the current covid outbreak might in part be how God is trying to waken a sleeping world and get us to get our priorities right.
Some good comments came in, and helpful discussion ensued. However, one guy sent in a real doozy of a comment. It was so bad that I figured it was worth writing an article about one day. And so here it is. And I still do not know if this is one of the more biblically illiterate Christians around, or just some troll pretending to be a believer. Anyway, this is what he sent in:
It’s a very dangerous belief system that some Christians have, of giving God credit for deaths and disaster. What you’re saying is that some people deserve to be punished and God is causing them pain and death. This not only is in contrast of a God that is defined by love, but it also takes away the power of the Cross. Jesus has paid in full for our sins and has taken on our punishment himself. If we start giving God credit for disasters, what we are saying is that “What Jesus did is not enough, and that God needs to hand out extra punishment”
Oh dear – how can a guy get so much wrong in such a short space? Where does one even begin in trying to reply? Well, let me make that attempt. First, to defend what Scripture clearly and repeatedly teaches is a “dangerous belief system”? Really?
And “some Christians”? I would have thought that all genuine Christians who accept the Bible as the authoritative word of God would of course hold to what it so patently teaches. Those who do not give real indications of not being actual Christians.
This guy does not believe that God can get “credit for deaths and disaster” and can cause some “pain and death”. Never mind that in my article I listed a number of biblical texts teaching this very thing. And those examples would just be the tip of the iceberg.
There are in fact hundreds of passages which do indeed proclaim that God can and does judge, can and does chastise, and can and does use all sorts of things to either punish evil and evildoers or to get them to repent and turn their lives around.
Simply looking at the verses that I used in the article should make that perfectly obvious. The Bible is full of this, whether it is driving a disobedient Adam and Eve out of the garden; flooding a wicked world and saving just 8 people; judging Pharaoh and his army; judging his own people repeatedly; judging Israel’s enemies; and so on.
Lest this guy dismiss this because it is ‘just’ from the Old Testament, he needs to read more carefully from the New. What about the treatment Ananias and Sapphira got for starters, or King Herod? I will let this guy look up the references – assuming he has a Bible handy.
No one can talk so foolishly if they simply read the book of Revelation. It is full of God-ordained judgments and punishments on the wicked and unrepentant. And this certainly includes pain, disaster and death. No one even slightly familiar with the Bible could say the sort of thing this fellow did – at least with a straight face.
And then he pushes the fake news about how this is “in contrast of a God that is defined by love.” Um, maybe HIS definition of love, but not biblical love. Divine love is never sentimental and syrupy sap in Scripture. It is always tough love, love that is based on a holy and righteous God who can never countenance evil and who must always judge sin. But I have written about this often before, eg.: https://billmuehlenberg.com/2010/05/27/on-divine-love-and-wrath/
But it is his confused and bizarre comments about what Jesus did on the cross that are especially worrying. Um, how does the fact that God has not changed, he still hates sin, and he still must act against it ‘take away the power of the Cross’?
Yes of course, Jesus suffered on the cross as a means of dealing with the sin question and our alienation from God. But as the New Testament everywhere clearly teaches, only those who avail themselves of this are pardoned and given new life in Christ. Only those who repent and turn from their sin are no longer under the wrath of God.
Those who refuse to turn are still fully the objects of God’s wrath. But it seems the only verse in the Bible that this guy is aware of is John 3:16. Hmm, he needs to keep reading the rest of the chapter. He would then find verses like this:
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Or as I just read again the other day in Romans 2:4-5: “Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.”
Everywhere this is taught in the New Testament. Only those who refuse to read it, or are a cultist or a heretic pushing universalism could try to get away with the nonsense that he is promoting here. See this piece on the error of the universalists: https://billmuehlenberg.com/2011/03/12/against-universalism/
Finally, just as any loving parent knows, sometimes children must be disciplined or chastised. Whatever form that punishment might take, a responsible parent does it because of his love for the child. Such discipline and love are not at all incompatible.
And that is just what God does with his own children. Yes, for the born-again believer, the sin issue is dealt with and judged at the cross. But that does NOT mean we can do whatever we like. God loves us too much to leave us the way we were, and as a loving heavenly Father he chastises his children. This guy needs to read Hebrews 12:3-11 on this for starters.
So the judgmentsthat unrepentant sinners receive both in this life and in the next, and the discipline and chastisement that Christians may experience in this life, is NOT a case of ‘handing out extra punishment’ as this guy recklessly supposes. It is part of how God always has and always will deal with the world.
Um, when someone comes along claiming to be some sort of authority on Scripture, but it is obvious that he knows nothing about it, or worse yet, is quite happy to ignore or reject most of it, then you know you got a real problem on your hands.
Sadly there are far too many folks claiming to be believers who think and talk the same way. The biblical advice is to have nothing to do with them, or to rebuke them sharply! All biblical Christians must be prepared to do that – especially if they want to set up an interactive website!
13 Replies to “How Can They Get Everything So Wrong?”
I totally agree Bill. In Jer 9:23,24 one of the 3 strands of God’s person is judgement. I think people choose to ignore it because a response demands confession and so, humility.
One of my rules as a teacher for 45 years was: ‘If more mercy produces more evil, judgement has to fall’. People need to read the Bible.
Yes right Rob.
Bill, I often visit the website of the “Chicks on the Right” on which they have a special page called the wall of shame. Perhaps you could have a page devoted to ridiculous comments that shows excerpts from this latter group you wrote about. Not to ridicule but to illustrate the error that is being passed around as truth.
Thanks Peter. Well, I do have a similar sort of thing, a subset of my theology category. It is called “Dumb theology posters” and has 23 entries so far:
Bill, I am always hesitant to draw a direct line between calamitous events and God’s judgement (I recall Acts17:31 and 1 Cor6:2). Also Heb9:27. However, I do agree that: 1) calamitous events are always directly attributable to the Fall; 2) the judgement for the Fall is reserved for Judgement Day; 3) but, God still makes Himself known thrown disasters and so on and especially so when man has abandoned Him and declared that there is no god or has raised himself up as god.
Biblical principles (such as blessings and curses) still act upon us and our lives. However, God does not “cause” the calamitous circumstances that impact our lives. Yes, in the last days plagues will be released and yes wars and rumours of wars et al. We are seeing more and more of the declarations of good is evil and evil is good but I prefer to stand back and wonder what should I be doing in reaction to events like 9/11, COVID-19 and the like. In a broad sense God’s interventions during the OT was not subtle. In the NT there was the incarnation death and resurrection of His son followed by the impartation of the Holy Spirit. He has equipped us but He still gives our pants a kick when these 9/11 and COVID-19 things happen. Unfortunately there are more ignorant responses than informed. How ridiculous would it be if your teenager borrowed the keys to the car and then wrote it off – then blames the parents. The parents would be more concerned about their child’s safety and recovery rather than attributing blame. Who would be so dumb as to say that it was the parents fault for letting drive the car? People ignore the fact that we were given free will and when we exercise it and mess it all up, somehow God gets the blame.
Thanks Peter. Yes, we are now dealing with the mega issues, including how we understand human responsibility in relation to divine sovereignty. And throw in satanic activity as well and it gets a bit complicated, theologically speaking. Not every natural disaster may be a direct act of God in terms of a particular judgment on a particular sin. But somehow God is in control and is carrying out his purposes.
I have come across this quite often. It is referred to (incorrectly) as the “hyper-grace” doctrine and not only do you need to write off pretty much the entire OT teaching to follow it I have demonstrated with more than one proponent that you have to also write off much of Jesus’ teaching. They then counter by saying that Jesus’ teaching (that contradicts their idea) was for the Jews when it is patently obvious from scripture when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and Saducees and that the teaching, which they need to write off, was clearly directed to the disciples and obviously meant to be promulgated to the church. Jesus did not teach the disciples in an effort to help them teach the Pharisees how to be better Pharisees.
All things may be lawful to Paul, who was repentant and would only have sinned by “missing the mark” as the NT describes it, but if he taught, as these people do, that sin no longer exists for believers and that when people deliberately continue in sin then that is covered by Jesus’ blood, then he would no longer be repentant and would be subject to the multiple other scriptures. E.g. 2 Pet 2, Heb 10:26-29, 1 Cor 3:17(KJV) etc., etc., etc. Their doctrine has no basis in scripture and only serves to reassure people who deliberately decide to continue in sin. The scriptures refer to these people as “the lawless” (anomia). They demonstrate they have no intention of being obedient.
Language has been twisted by satan from the beginning. He know that he who controls the language controls the conversation. Control the conversation you can shape the society. Words matter that is why they, satan’s people, change the meaning of them to suit their desires. If words have no intrinsic meaning but change with each societal change then thoughts and values and ideas themselves become very difficult to transmit from one generation to the next.
It appears the Salvation Army have bowed to the alter of wokeness. Their founders must be weeping.
“but they nonetheless are so woefully biblically ignorant and so theologically mixed-up that you do not know if you should laugh or cry when you see their stuff.”
Each day Bill, looking at theological discussions on-line, I get more and more concerned about how little Christians know, and knowing little they have little to teach those who are dependent on them (if they do any teaching at all).
A recent example from a discussion is someone starting a reply to me with the words, “When He the Spirit of truth has come He will lead and guide you into all truth” and using that to justify one-on-one communications with God leading to them removing themselves from under the authority of a local church and to “glean” (their words) from various people here and there. I’ve yet to reply and politely ask them how come the Spirit hasn’t shown them the context of that verse, it being a part of something Jesus spoke just to the Apostles with relation to the three years He spent with them, and has nothing to do with any of us now?
Bill – Your article reminded me of the verse from Proverbs 14:12 (KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Bill, first time I found you/blog
Good words/subject
I feel your pain, maybe this will help as I have used it in similar conversations:
“I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you”
Forward in Faith
So, apparently, judging from some of the other replies, you are right, and there are a lot of people who are either ignorant, or maliciously wrong.
Moreover, you stated your case with enough force to leave your commenter quite put in his or her place.
And yet, somehow your observations raise in my mind a question about what has been accomplished here. What good will become of this post, either for the church at large, for the wide assortment of offenders or for the specific individual whose post you took to task? Will anyone be redeemed as a result? Will anyone be transformed to become more Christlike? Will anyone find strength to overcome human frailty? Will anyone be inspired to reach out to another with the love of Jesus?
You seem quite right in your observations, but is it possible that this is one of those situations where it is better to love than to be right?
Thanks John. But I prefer the biblical path which of course never pits love against truth. Both are vitally important and both must be pursued simultaneously. The most loving thing we can do is share truth, challenge lies and deception, and prevent those with false views from deceiving others, and heading to a lost eternity. And if you are opposed to “forceful” rebuttals of error, then you must think the prophets, Jesus and Paul, to name but a few, are all to be condemned. Consider a few “forceful” and very public words from Christ from just one gospel:
Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
Matthew 12:39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.”
Matthew 15:7 You hypocrites!
Matthew 15:14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.
Matthew 15:16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them.
Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Matthew 17:17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied,
Matthew 23:16 Woe to you, blind guides!
Matthew 23:19 You blind men!
Matthew 23:27 You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs!
Matthew 23:33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
But by your way of thinking, he was far too unloving and un-Christlike, and turned people off. Sorry, but I will side with Jesus here on this one! Truth matters, and not responding to error endangers the person holding to the error. There is nothing loving or Christian about just winking at error or ignoring it, all in the name of being ‘nice’.
As I just read in 1 Timothy 2:24-26: “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.” Paul got it right. And he could be VERY forceful in correcting others, mincing no words. But thanks for your thoughts.
I totally agree Bill. In Jer 9:23,24 one of the 3 strands of God’s person is judgement. I think people choose to ignore it because a response demands confession and so, humility.
One of my rules as a teacher for 45 years was: ‘If more mercy produces more evil, judgement has to fall’. People need to read the Bible.
Yes right Rob.
Bill, I often visit the website of the “Chicks on the Right” on which they have a special page called the wall of shame. Perhaps you could have a page devoted to ridiculous comments that shows excerpts from this latter group you wrote about. Not to ridicule but to illustrate the error that is being passed around as truth.
Thanks Peter. Well, I do have a similar sort of thing, a subset of my theology category. It is called “Dumb theology posters” and has 23 entries so far:
https://billmuehlenberg.com/category/theology/dumb-theology-posters/
Bill, I am always hesitant to draw a direct line between calamitous events and God’s judgement (I recall Acts17:31 and 1 Cor6:2). Also Heb9:27. However, I do agree that: 1) calamitous events are always directly attributable to the Fall; 2) the judgement for the Fall is reserved for Judgement Day; 3) but, God still makes Himself known thrown disasters and so on and especially so when man has abandoned Him and declared that there is no god or has raised himself up as god.
Biblical principles (such as blessings and curses) still act upon us and our lives. However, God does not “cause” the calamitous circumstances that impact our lives. Yes, in the last days plagues will be released and yes wars and rumours of wars et al. We are seeing more and more of the declarations of good is evil and evil is good but I prefer to stand back and wonder what should I be doing in reaction to events like 9/11, COVID-19 and the like. In a broad sense God’s interventions during the OT was not subtle. In the NT there was the incarnation death and resurrection of His son followed by the impartation of the Holy Spirit. He has equipped us but He still gives our pants a kick when these 9/11 and COVID-19 things happen. Unfortunately there are more ignorant responses than informed. How ridiculous would it be if your teenager borrowed the keys to the car and then wrote it off – then blames the parents. The parents would be more concerned about their child’s safety and recovery rather than attributing blame. Who would be so dumb as to say that it was the parents fault for letting drive the car? People ignore the fact that we were given free will and when we exercise it and mess it all up, somehow God gets the blame.
Thanks Peter. Yes, we are now dealing with the mega issues, including how we understand human responsibility in relation to divine sovereignty. And throw in satanic activity as well and it gets a bit complicated, theologically speaking. Not every natural disaster may be a direct act of God in terms of a particular judgment on a particular sin. But somehow God is in control and is carrying out his purposes.
I have come across this quite often. It is referred to (incorrectly) as the “hyper-grace” doctrine and not only do you need to write off pretty much the entire OT teaching to follow it I have demonstrated with more than one proponent that you have to also write off much of Jesus’ teaching. They then counter by saying that Jesus’ teaching (that contradicts their idea) was for the Jews when it is patently obvious from scripture when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and Saducees and that the teaching, which they need to write off, was clearly directed to the disciples and obviously meant to be promulgated to the church. Jesus did not teach the disciples in an effort to help them teach the Pharisees how to be better Pharisees.
All things may be lawful to Paul, who was repentant and would only have sinned by “missing the mark” as the NT describes it, but if he taught, as these people do, that sin no longer exists for believers and that when people deliberately continue in sin then that is covered by Jesus’ blood, then he would no longer be repentant and would be subject to the multiple other scriptures. E.g. 2 Pet 2, Heb 10:26-29, 1 Cor 3:17(KJV) etc., etc., etc. Their doctrine has no basis in scripture and only serves to reassure people who deliberately decide to continue in sin. The scriptures refer to these people as “the lawless” (anomia). They demonstrate they have no intention of being obedient.
Language has been twisted by satan from the beginning. He know that he who controls the language controls the conversation. Control the conversation you can shape the society. Words matter that is why they, satan’s people, change the meaning of them to suit their desires. If words have no intrinsic meaning but change with each societal change then thoughts and values and ideas themselves become very difficult to transmit from one generation to the next.
It appears the Salvation Army have bowed to the alter of wokeness. Their founders must be weeping.
“but they nonetheless are so woefully biblically ignorant and so theologically mixed-up that you do not know if you should laugh or cry when you see their stuff.”
Each day Bill, looking at theological discussions on-line, I get more and more concerned about how little Christians know, and knowing little they have little to teach those who are dependent on them (if they do any teaching at all).
A recent example from a discussion is someone starting a reply to me with the words, “When He the Spirit of truth has come He will lead and guide you into all truth” and using that to justify one-on-one communications with God leading to them removing themselves from under the authority of a local church and to “glean” (their words) from various people here and there. I’ve yet to reply and politely ask them how come the Spirit hasn’t shown them the context of that verse, it being a part of something Jesus spoke just to the Apostles with relation to the three years He spent with them, and has nothing to do with any of us now?
Bill – Your article reminded me of the verse from Proverbs 14:12 (KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Bill, first time I found you/blog
Good words/subject
I feel your pain, maybe this will help as I have used it in similar conversations:
“I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you”
Forward in Faith
So, apparently, judging from some of the other replies, you are right, and there are a lot of people who are either ignorant, or maliciously wrong.
Moreover, you stated your case with enough force to leave your commenter quite put in his or her place.
And yet, somehow your observations raise in my mind a question about what has been accomplished here. What good will become of this post, either for the church at large, for the wide assortment of offenders or for the specific individual whose post you took to task? Will anyone be redeemed as a result? Will anyone be transformed to become more Christlike? Will anyone find strength to overcome human frailty? Will anyone be inspired to reach out to another with the love of Jesus?
You seem quite right in your observations, but is it possible that this is one of those situations where it is better to love than to be right?
Thanks John. But I prefer the biblical path which of course never pits love against truth. Both are vitally important and both must be pursued simultaneously. The most loving thing we can do is share truth, challenge lies and deception, and prevent those with false views from deceiving others, and heading to a lost eternity. And if you are opposed to “forceful” rebuttals of error, then you must think the prophets, Jesus and Paul, to name but a few, are all to be condemned. Consider a few “forceful” and very public words from Christ from just one gospel:
Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.
Matthew 12:39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.”
Matthew 15:7 You hypocrites!
Matthew 15:14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.
Matthew 15:16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them.
Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Matthew 17:17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied,
Matthew 23:16 Woe to you, blind guides!
Matthew 23:19 You blind men!
Matthew 23:27 You hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs!
Matthew 23:33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
But by your way of thinking, he was far too unloving and un-Christlike, and turned people off. Sorry, but I will side with Jesus here on this one! Truth matters, and not responding to error endangers the person holding to the error. There is nothing loving or Christian about just winking at error or ignoring it, all in the name of being ‘nice’.
As I just read in 1 Timothy 2:24-26: “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.” Paul got it right. And he could be VERY forceful in correcting others, mincing no words. But thanks for your thoughts.