CultureWatch

Bill Muehlenberg's commentary on issues of the day...

A Dark Day for Children

Dec 14, 2007

Why am I not surprised? The Victorian government has just announced that it will grant IVF access to homosexual couples. Minutes ago it declared that it will go ahead with most of the recommendations put forth in a Victorian Law Reform Commission (VLRC) report into changes to the state Infertility Act. It made 130 recommendations, and Attorney General Rob Hulls has agreed to nearly all of them.

The most controversial include allowing same-sex couples to have access to IVF and other assisted reproductive technologies. We will now have basically open slather, with numerous combinations of “lifestyle arrangements” being able to bring children into the world.

I have been writing about this whole process from the day the Inquiry was announced back in 2002. Everything has gone exactly according to plan – the plan, that is, of the radical social engineers, the homosexual lobby, the biased VLRC, and the leftist Labor government. I said this was going to be a done deal, and sure enough, that has taken place as if it was all pre-arranged.

The concerns of most Victorians and the wellbeing of children have been totally overlooked. The Labor Government and the VLRC have effectively said that the rights of minority activist groups should always take precedence over the well-being of children.

Incredibly, VLRC Commissioner Iain Ross said that these changes were in children’s best interests! He said children were disadvantaged if their family arrangements were not recognised by law. Several things can be said about these claims.

First, the overwhelming weight of 35 years of social science evidence makes this point quite clear: children are best served when raised by their own biological parents. With over 10,000 international studies weighing into this question, the data is irrefutable: children raised in any other structure than that of a mother/father family suffer considerable disadvantages.

This evidence was presented to the VLRC by myself and many other individuals and groups. Dr Ross and the VLRC have simply ignored that wealth of evidence. They have chosen to sweep the data under the carpet, preferring instead to push political correctness and advance the cause of radical minority groups. This is scandalous and shameful.

Worse of all, we Victorian taxpayers are footing the bill for both the VLRC and our activist government. It seems that with wall-to-wall Labor governments around the country, they now believe they can do whatever they want, and ignore the concerns of the majority, and squash under their heels the wellbeing of children.

Also, Dr Ross is being quite disingenuous here, by claiming children in different types of relationship settings need legal recognition. If that is the case, why not go all the way? Why not change all our laws and legalise in favor of other minority situations? After all, some children grow up in households where their parents are drug addicts. Should we legalise all drugs, therefore, in the interests of the child?

Maybe we should abolish all laws against theft as well. After all, a minority of children grow up in homes where the parents are thieves. If we want the children not to be stigmatised or feeling left out, I guess we must legally recognise their parents’ situation as well.

And what about other family situations? If the radical social engineers want children to be raised in same-sex households, why not all “loving, consensual” relationships? What if three men love each other and want to have children by IVF? Should they not have IVF access for the very same reasons that same-sex couples now can?

This whole situation has been one long exercise in social engineering and radical politics. The rights of minority groups and greedy adults are being put ahead of the rights and wellbeing of our most precious and innocent asset: our children. When our children suffer, the whole of society suffers.

These radical social experiments are relatively new yet. Give them a few more decades to let the bitter fruit begin to appear. We will all pay for the reckless abandonment of the wisdom of the ages and common sense. Indeed, we all suffer when radical minority groups are allowed to trump the rights and welfare of the rest of the community, especially that of our children.

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22 Responses to A Dark Day for Children

  • I guess they didn’t heed my submission either. And this government said it would be more accountable!

    I am a little perplexed to hear the report that they have not granted adoption rights to homosexual couples. Only half pregnant? (Pardon the pun).

    Jeremy Peet

  • Hi Bill,

    I’m sorry that your evidence, along with the other presentations was ignored. If it was up to your usual standard, then I have to wonder what happens in the minds of these people. What amazes me is the level of self-deception people engage in on these topics. You hear comments such as “Finally, it’s the 21st Century, after all…”, and so on. They have absolutely no consideration of how outcomes for things like this work. You don’t just play around with the core parts of society like this.

    Anyone would (legitimately) think you a fool for gradually removing key parts of a building’s structure, but do the same effectively to a group of people and it’s OK. This slow shift in society’s norms are like an inexorable cancer or rust. Tomorrow may look pretty much the same, but you can guarantee that a few years down the track we as a society will be even more sick for it. I can only wonder at what kind of price future generations will pay for this stupidity. What kind of poverty are we foreshadowing? How many precedents do we need as a race? It’s times like this that it becomes obvious why Jesus came to intervene in the history of this planet and its daft occupants.

    What kind of society gets its members to subsidize its own slow destruction? Victoria in 2007.

    Mark Rabich

  • Bill,

    Thanks for standing up for children’s rights. Your last website title HOW LONG OH LORD (till you come and judge us in Righteousness), is the only response I can give.

    Stephen White

  • Hi Bill , thanks again for fine analysis.
    Stan Fishley.

  • Bill,

    What is the source of your claim about “over 10,000 studies” support your views? It seems to originate from a claim by James Dobson, but there is a great deal of evidence that the claim is without foundation and that in fact kids raised in gay families are no worse off than any other family.

    Judith O’Brien, Toowoomba

  • Bill, once again you’ve hit right to the core of a disastrous policy being brought in by the human hating Left. I’m not surprised in the least that they ignored the results of 10,000 academic studies that prove that children are victimized by the selfish actions of certain minorities backed by their activists in the current Australian government. What amazes me is that Christians helped vote these parties in knowing full well the anti-moral stance they take. We are now reaping and going to reap the consequences of that foolish decision on 24th November (and of course all the state elections where Australians took the same decision). The cesspool is rising, hold your breath.
    Dee Graf

  • Hi Bill,

    I really think the Government have the cart before the horse on this occasion. Until the Government recognize same sex marriages or binding relationships then I do not see why they would allow IVF for same sex people. They do not allow adoption so what is the difference? There are a range of legal problems for that child and one and most importantly being the legal guardian. It seems to be pandering to the selfishness of the individual without any thought being given to the as yet conceived child.

    Ben Green

  • Dear Bill,
    As we know this is not an Australian problem but a spiritual disease that is sweeping western European nations; it is the fruit of decades if not centuries of evolutionary humanism. We must resist. But we cannot do this on our own; we need to network globally -and what an incredible tool the internet is! There are so many Christians with different skills and experiences that need, together, to put their shoulders to the wheel. But because this is an invisible war, almost a phoney one, we are tempted to think that we are imagining all this and that we need “to get out a bit more.” But as Mark Rabich says, ”Tomorrow may look pretty much the same, but you can guarantee that a few years down the track we as a society will be even more sick for it. I can only wonder at what kind of price future generations will pay for this stupidity.”

    From my own experience of what is happening in Britain, the battle is certainly not over. At the pointy end we have the excellent Christian Institute (Briefing papers on homosexuality and religious liberty:
    http://www.christian.org.uk/html-publications/pub_homosexualrights.htm; http://www.christian.org.uk/html-publications/pub_religliberty.htm ) and Concern For Our Nation, run by a diminutive, but mighty warrior, Andrea Minichello Williams, http://www.ccfon.org/ and at the other, you have the foot soldiers, like myself, whose task it isto persuade our local MP to press for the amendments to the raft of godless bills, coming out that our Christian lawyers are asking for. We cannot leave it all to the “boys” up front. Their work of trying to act as salt and light in the legal world will be wasted if we do not play our part in convincing our grass roots MPs also.

    So what to do? We need a clear picture of this elephant in the room, not just the tail, or tusks or ear, but the entire beast and we need to present this to our MP. We need to:
    1. Show how laws that are enforcing this slide into the abyss do not accord with reality, wisdom and commonsense and as a consequence will be completely unintelligible to the 98% of the population – thus putting them at a severe disadvantage and cowing them into submission.
    2. Show how, since the 60’s, influenced by evolutionary humanism, society has become more dysfunctional and dangerous – especially for out children.
    3. Show how the family, the very building block and transmitter of values of society is being deliberately destroyed by evolutionary humanists/Marxists
    4. Show how with the surgical removal of sex from the family, it has been allowed to fly with playboy, plastic wings wherever it wants, resulting in paedophilia, incest and polyamory.
    5. Show how our children are being groomed on an industrial scale towards a life of AIDs, abject slavery to lust and premature death.
    6. Show how the sexual equivalent of Belson and Auschwitz is on its way here with the Folsom Street Fair
    7. Show how there will be no equality, inclusion or tolerance etc for decent, law-abiding citizens who will be publically humiliated, harassed, fined and imprisoned.
    8. Show the evidence for all this from newspaper articles.
    If this is of any use, especially evidence for what has already happened, this material that Tom Forest of Cromasaig, Scotland and I have put together, we would feel that our efforts had not been in vain. http://www.cromasaig.com/gaybill.htm

    David Skinner, UK

  • How condescending of the Victorian government to grant the moral conservatives a small concession by not allowing same-sex couples adoption rights – for now at least. Presumably the social engineers know full well that given a little more time, community attitudes will shift further and then it won’t seem too radical to allow same-sex couples to adopt. Little by little society moves further away from the biblical standard.

    Ewan McDonald, Victoria.

  • Thanks Judith

    There is so much data now available on the benefits of marriage and two-parent heterosexual families, that summaries of the summaries have been written. The evidence is readily available in the public domain for those who are really interested.

    And the “research” favouring same-sex parenting has been roundly condemned. See for example: http://www.family.org.au/Journals/2003/children_first.htm

    I have written on all this elsewhere on this site.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  • Well said David Skinner – some options to activate.
    Also, how about public protests and ‘fight’ the opposition in the streets – but who will lead? Clearly, blogs, letters to editors, and research is not impacting on politically led social engineering by minorities!
    Ray Robinson, Wollongong

  • “Consensus” to a leftist government means stacking a panel with like-minded activists and ignoring contrary submissions.
    Jonathan Sarfati, Brisbane

  • Bill

    I don’t know where you get this homophobia from. It seems the very antithesis of Christ’s teachings.

    Your social science is highly implausible too.

    But after all that, I wish you and you followers all the very best for Christmas.

    Fred Golding

  • Thanks Fred

    But just throwing out reckless claims without an iota of backing is of course not making an argument.

    -Please tell us exactly how concern for the wellbeing of children constitutes homophobia?
    -Please inform all of us exactly which teachings of Jesus conflict with the desire to uphold God’s intentions for human sexuality and the family?
    -Please tell us the exact details of the implausibility of the social science data.

    Merry Christmas to you as well.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  • Fred,
    Like Bill, I challenge you to produce your evidence for your open-slather generalisations. People of the Left are good at citing anonymous “studies”, but on examination they prove to be biased, tendentious, and flawed. The much-vaunted study purporting to show that homosexulaity is inherited is a case in point.

    As to Scripture, show us what specific aspect of Christ’s teachings Bill’s stand contradicts. Chapter and verse, please!

    And don’t on on about “love”, or not being judgmental. Any competent exegete will show that such texts as Matt.7:1 or Matt.22:39, or John 8:11 have been grossly travestied by post-modern sentiment. Read instead John 7:24; 3:36; Matt.5:28. The last text is particularly applicable to the modern penchant for pornography. Do you also wish to say that any stand against that likewise contradicts Christ’s teachings?

    Bill, the sad decision by the Victorian Labor government only highlights that we live in (a) a collapsing culture, which has repudiated its heritage, and is determined to sweep away every last vestige of that heritage; and (b) an irrational culture, one which cannot and will not see reason, but is Hell-bent on having its way regardless of all evidence, logic, common sense, and accumulated wisdom. It recklessly pursues its own goals and its claimed “mandate” to implement all manner of things we, the constituency, have never heard of.

    Murray Adamthwaite

  • Well said Bill,

    I have penned a few comments as well on the matter for a news service and my own colleagues.

    My view is that should Parliament approve this Bill, the State of Victoria will have taken a big step backwards. This year we celebrated the work of Wilberforce in the British Parliament in freeing slaves. Many other wonderful things were done by the British Parliament in the early 1800’s – educational reform, sanitation and health reforms, the humanising of the prison system, penal code reform and the emancipation of industrial society including the formation of the trade union movement. These were to the benefit of the country’s citizens and provided the basis of further ongoing reform of society.

    What we are now seeing is not progressive but regressive legislation by the Labor Government undermining the basis of human society, the family. Three years ago the Federal Government passed legislation defining marriage as “the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others, voluntarily entered into for life”. Historically, marriage between a man and a woman has always been understood everywhere as the proper setting for bringing children into the world and nurturing them.

    What the Brumby Government is saying in its recent proposals is that anyone should have the right to a child if they want one. Children have just become commodities of trade. Under surrogacy it is possible for a child to have up to 5 parents – the commissioning parents, the egg donor, the sperm donor and the mother who carries the baby through to birth. The idea that that children can have two mothers but no father or two fathers but no mother is abhorrent and against nature. A child with two mothers will want to know relationally his/her father; likewise a child with two fathers will want to know relationally his/her mother. To say a child can have two mothers or two fathers in place of a father and mother is a gross deceit which will eventually be called a deceit and tarnish this generation in the eyes of future generations, much as we fault the previous generation for the stolen generation of aboriginal children.

    The interests of children must be paramount in the provision of IVF services which aim to achieve pregnancy, and the interests of children are best safeguarded in the context of a family formed upon the security and commitment of a marriage between a man and a woman. Children need relationships with both a mother and a father, and the example of male and female identity in the love between their parents, and between each parent and the children. Sometimes it happens that this ideal becomes fragmented by death, illness or choice, or the individuals are less than ideal in fulfilling their responsibilities to each other and their children, but the ideal remains.

    The Brumby Government has expressed satisfaction with their proposals but in this instance have demonstrated their moral bankruptcy.

    David Palmer, Presbyterian Church of Victoria

  • Bill you put three challenges to me:

    1. Please tell us exactly how concern for the wellbeing of children constitutes homophobia??

    Your concern for children is confected – and here you are implying a false dichotomy: that your concern for children is far more central to your argument than your concern for homosexuality.

    In fact, your concern for children comes only after the (non-defined) ‘concerns of most Victorians’ by which you mean those Victorians opposed to same-sex couples and their children.

    The focus of your attack has always been on homosexuality and you consistently take a homophobic stance.

    2. Please inform all of us exactly which teachings of Jesus conflict with the desire to uphold God’s intentions for human sexuality and the family??

    Jesus said virtually nothing at all about homosexuality. He was more concerned with purity of the heart and love. The Christian scriptures don’t say that homosexuality is wrong per se. They do not say homosexuality is harmful, unkind, destructive or unloving. As I read the Bible, sexual acts would only be condemned when they are abusive, exploitative, hurtful, wanton or lewd, just as heterosexual acts would be condemned for these same reasons. It’s immoral behavior that is condemned, not homosexual behavior in itself. The Bible teaches love above all.

    3. Please tell us the exact details of the implausibility of the social science data.

    Bill consider your intemperate language for starters “open slather…the radical social engineers, the homosexual lobby, the biased VLRC, and the leftist Labor government”. Later, you give us “greedy adults” and wall-to-wall Labor (what relevance?).

    What’s plausible about your gross generalisation: “…the overwhelming weight of 35 years of social science evidence makes this point quite clear: children are best served when raised by their own biological parents.” You demand specificity from me, but you can’t put up, yourself.

    You go on in this vein: “With over 10,000 international studies weighing into this question, the data is irrefutable: children raised in any other structure than that of a mother/father family suffer considerable disadvantages.”

    As a child raised in a structure other than that of a mother/father family, I feel fine. So where’s your bibliography? Or is it only the other side which has to be specific?

    Your personal attack on Dr Ross and the VLRC is demeaning to you more so than to your targets. You accuse them of ignoring the wealth of evidence that you provided, “…preferring instead to push political correctness and advance the cause of radical minority groups. This is scandalous and shameful.” You provide not a shred of evidence for this claim. Poor social science.

    Your ludicrous extension to legalising all drugs and abolishing theft because some children grow up among addicts and thieves is hysterical nonsense. That’s not so much poor social science – just rotten logic.

    Fred Golding

  • Thanks Fred

    But sorry, you are still dealing in smoke and mirrors, not fact and evidence.

    1. The subject at hand is the creation of children for homosexual couples. So yes, the wellbeing of children is the primary item for discussion here. Throwing around names like homophobia contributes nothing to the debate. You might as well argue that to be concerned about lung cancer makes one tobaccophobic.

    2. Jesus also said nothing about rape, pollution or arson. According to your logic, that means he approves of these activities as well. And your reading of Scripture is obviously highly selective. You conveniently ignore Rom 1:18-32; 1 Cor 6:9-11; 1 Tim 1:9-10; 2 Pet 2:4-9; Jude 1:4-8 in the New Testament, plus the Old Testament texts as well.

    And of course the Bible does not teach “love above all”. Every attribute of God is fully brought together and complementary, with no one attribute trumping any other. Thus the holiness, justice and righteousness of God are as descriptive of his character as is love. And Biblical love means willing the highest good of the other person. Thus love never means willing someone to live in a destructive lifestyle, fully outside the will of God. Jesus made it clear that love means keeping God’s commandments, not breaking them and dismissing them.

    3. And you still do not offer one scrap of refutation of the social science data. The data is so vast that short articles on websites are not the place to feature the case. I hope to soon have a book out with the data. But if you are really interested in the evidence, there are many places to go. For books that offer a summary of the mass of data, you might try, for starters:

    -Horn, Wade and Tom Sylvester, Father Facts, 5th ed. Gaithersburg, MD.: National Fatherhood Initiative, 2007.
    -Maher, Bridget, ed., The Family Portrait: A Compilation of Data, Research and Public Opinion on the Family, 2nd ed. Washington, D.C.: Family Research Council, 2002, 2004.

    So again we are left simply with more tongue-wagging, backed up by no data or facts. Thus you still offer no argument worth taking very seriously.

    Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch

  • Dear David Palmer with reference to William Wilberforce, the Christian Institute UK carry on his work at the William Wilberforce House: http://www.christian.org.uk/home.htm. They produce excellent intelligence regarding the war against secularism. As a sample, this publication argues the case for children to be reared in a heterosexual, monogamous and enduring marriage and points out that long before the church came into being it was the first institution created by God: http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/What%20is%20Marriage%20For.pdf

    I am sorry that I can only give UK examples of what is happening, but my fear is that once Australia gets into gear, it will rapidly surpass even the US in depravity. Thirty years ago, I idly wondered what would happen if all restraints were taken away in society; what would happen if we allowed our instincts free reign. I think we are about to see precisely this.

    Fred, I am afraid the homosexual lobby can only mouth mantras like “equality”, ”tolerance,” “inclusion,” “diversity,” – mindless gibberish, without a scrap of evidence or argument. As for the sheer nonsense about the New Testament saying nothing about homosexuality, this is like saying the Highway Code says nothing about driving or cycling along railway lines or upside down in the sea. Just as its directives on how to observe, signal and manoeuvre at junctions presuppose a road system, so the New Testament’s statements about submission, obedience and authority within sexual relationships presuppose God’s road map of creation in Genesis 1 and 2. These statements concerning submission, obedience and authority outside the context of God’s creation ordinance make no sense. You are too close; stand back and then you will see it.

    If one wants to pervert and corrupt a nation, the best place to start is in schools. The mind of the child is malleable, impressionable and most inclined to want to conform to the peer group. Plus, a stressed generation of parents, have little awareness of what their children are being taught in schools. Stonewall has enormous influence in the education system, via education departments in universities, the teaching unions, especially the NUT and the UCU ( university and college union). Our children, or as Ben Summerskill ( Stonewall) calls them, “tiny tots” are being groomed and led by the hand, on an industrial scale to a place of death.

    Question: “ Madam do you want your little boy and/or little girl to grow up as a homosexual and lesbian?”
    Answer: “ We will love them whatever they become.”
    Question: “ Madam, that was not what I asked you; do you want your little boy and/or little girl to grow up as a homosexual and lesbian?”
    “You bet, can’t wait, must have.” Is hardly the answer one would expect.

    Below is the evidence of this mass grooming, taking place in Britain or as Judith Reisman calls it, “crafting”.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=398343&in_page_id=1770 (difference between right and wrong no longer to be taught )
    http://www.stonewall.org.uk/education_for_all/ (Stonewall@s document on schools’ policies).
    http://www.tht.org.uk/informationresources/publications/gaymengerneralinformation/bottomlinethirdedition124.pdf (Terrance Higgins Trust and its dream for our children)
    http://www.christian.org.uk/soregs/sor_booklet_sept06.pdf ( evidence of children being corrupted in school)
    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-2037.html (largest Teachers’ Union interfering with very young children)
    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1116142004 (sexualisation of young children)
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2031223,00.html (brainwashing of small children)

    Tom Forest who lives way in the far north of Scotland and I have produced a web site that tries to explain the whole picture of what is going. http://www.cromasaig.com/gaybill.htm
    Explain to whom? You might ask. Explain to our families, neighbours, friends and sadly the church. We need to put all the pieces of the jig saw together or all our ducks in a row. The Christian version of what it taking place in society throughout western civilisation is the only one that makes sense. And the story needs telling.

    David Skinner, UK

  • Thanks Bill for another great entry. On the day that the legislation was passed my heart sank. The evidence on the need for children to grow up in a stable household with a mother AND father role model is growing every day. Fred, you could well spend some time in a bookshop looking at the range of books available by leading child developmental psychologists under the section on childhood.

    But the main issue I wish to raise here is the agenda of the social engineers. You are right Bill, Dr Ross has ignored the mountain of evidence and it is not surprising that the Attorney General has agreed to most of the recommendations. After all, Dr Ross was appointed by the Attorney General, just as he appoints most other Chief Executives of the Statutory Authorities under his portfolio. Over time (he is now in his third parliamentary term as Attorney General) he has allowed the radical left to move into key positions that are not directly accountable to the public at election time. And mind you, the Attorney General was educated at Zavier College, a christian college.

    Homosexual “relationships” and other alternative lifestyles based on deviant sexual desires are NOT an ideal environment for raising children. In fact, homosexuals who act with restraint only do so because of the few restrictions (what’s left of them) still imposed by society. When left to their own desires we see a different side. Fred, you should look at photos from the Folsom Street Fair if you doubt this, and keep in mind when you do that this was a street fair in public where children were potentially present. Go on Fred… look at the Folsom Street Fair and tell us with complete conviction that you approve and would be comfortable putting your children in the hands of these people.

    And as for the usual cry of “homophobia”, lets get that right as well. “Phobia” is an extreme or abnormal fear. I don’t fear the gay lifestyle, I just totally disapprove!

    Frank Norros

  • Thank you David re Christian Institute – I agree they do a great job and produce excellent material. I’m on their mailing list.

    Frank,

    The legislation re IVF and Surrogacy has yet to be introduced into Parliament (early 2008), and although it will be passed, it won’t be without a fight. We can all participate and Bill tells us what we can do individually. I can only speak for the Presbyterian Church, but the PCV will be writing to every politician and see what else we can do.

    David Palmer

  • Dear Ray Robinson, you say, ”how about public protests and ‘fight’ the opposition in the streets – but who will lead? Clearly, blogs, letters to editors, and research is not impacting on politically led social engineering by minorities!” Just listen to the spirit of this lady who posted this on Anglican Mainstream nearly a year ago in Britain:
    Diane Mullaly wrote: “I am a committed Christian aged 63 and so very grieved that a minority in this country could push things so far that the majority of us could be forced into tolerating their views in our churches, schools, businesses and homes or risk prosecution. I for one will not accept that my church will be unable to refuse to marry same-sex couples or hire out halls for gay parties/events or even to accept gay couples into a Christian bed and breakfast. In all these issues including the adoption one – I will gladly go to prison but I will not have these things forced upon me or my family… I want the right to choose what I teach my children and grandchildren – not have it forced upon me that I must teach them about “another kind of love” as they put it in a leaflet being prepared – I will not teach my grandchildren this, nor stand by and agree to someone else doing so, and I sincerely hope that there are many, many women like me
    who feel the same in this country. If this law is passed in this country my freedom to choose will
    have been taken away.”

    I would only add that it is not just our freedom of speech and freedom of expression that we will lose, but the very lives of our children as they die in their thousands from HIV, drugs and suicide. No one as far as I know has so accurately described the fruit of homosexuality as Paul in Romans 1: “Men committed indecent acts with other men … and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion…God…gave them over to a depraved mind…… those who do such things deserve death.”

    But Ray, What about this? http://www.standfirminfaith.com/index.php/site/article/469

    Yesterday an old Christian friend of mine phoned up to say “Happy Christmas.” He is an evangelist amongst Asians in London and has a Phd in theology; he gave up a long time ago a well paid job to go into full time ministry; he is someone who is passionate about one to one discipleship and Bible study and yet…he forbade me talk about “it“ and wondered why my wife had not divorced me already. When I questioned him on what the Bible had to say about authority, submission and obedience, he had suddenly become volcanically revisionist.

    Ray we will lose old friends and maybe even wives, sons and daughters in this civil war …but make no doubt it. THIS IS WAR. http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/index.php/2007/12/14/us-culture-war-casualties-the-banned-boy-scouts/#more-2573 Posted on Lisa’s Lookout.

    David Skinner, UK

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